In this episode of Before We Get There, host Nicholas Braman sits down with Ruby Tan, a Singaporean who pursued her dream of becoming an outdoor adventure guide, leading her to New Zealand. Ruby shares her story of leaving a traditional 9 to 5 job, dealing with cultural and personal challenges, and finding her true calling in the outdoors. The conversation covers her struggles with family expectations, the impact of COVID-19, and the personal growth that came from following her passions. Ruby candidly discusses her mental health journey and the resilience needed to live a life true to herself.
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Website: https://nicholasbraman.com/before-we-get-there-podcast/
Nicholas: Welcome to Before We Get There, the podcast where we explore people’s journeys. How they got to where they are, what keeps them pushing forward, and where they eventually want to get to. I’m your host, Nicholas Braman, and today I’m joined by Ruby Tan.
Ruby is a Singaporean who chased her dreams of becoming an outdoor adventure guide all the way to New Zealand. Ruby has an amazing story because her passions and what makes her life fulfilling, kayaking, outdoor climbing, hiking, and more. Don’t really exist in Singapore. She had to give up her traditional 9 to 5 job and move across the world to find where she felt she belongs.
We discuss her journey, the many challenges and triumphs along the way, and much more. Enjoy the show. Hi, Ruby. Thanks so much for being with me here today. Hello. Good to have you on the show. So what I wanted to start off with, you’ve lived in a couple of other countries outside of Singapore. What’s your experience been?
Ruby Tan: Oh, I would say the longest that I’ve lived elsewhere would be in New Zealand, but I have worked short periods of time in other places. I can’t quite comment on the other places, but I consider New Zealand my home. Like when I left Singapore for the first time, not for the first time, but when I got here, the first time for a course, I think that was when I felt like it was home for a reason.
I just felt like I fit in with the people, the humor was the same, I liked the lifestyle, I liked the values that the culture seemed to prioritize, so I was pretty happy here.
Nicholas: Yeah, that’s good. That feeling of comfort and feeling like you fit in when you first got to New Zealand. Did you feel that you didn’t fit in Singapore or was it only you realized after you’d been to New Zealand that, wow, this really shows
Ruby Tan: me.
I always feel, I think this is something that I’m still working on, but the whole maybe shame of not feeling like I belonged in the place where I was born in and feeling like, especially with when. So I knew that Singapore was not the country for me when I was 16, because I’d gone and visited an auntie who lives in the Gold Coast.
And I think it was the first time I realized that I could live life differently, like different to what I know. And I knew at that point that it was not for me. And I was always finding ways to get out. But then I think because people would say that, Oh, what’s wrong? What’s wrong with Singapore? Singapore is so good.
You’ve got this, you’ve got that, blah, blah, blah. You’re a little ungrateful, blah, blah, blah. So I was like, Oh, is there something wrong with me? Loving the place that, or feeling like I belong to the place that I was born in. There’s that. So I suppose anytime someone asked me that I almost feel like, am I allowed to say that I don’t feel, I didn’t feel like I belonged and think, well, but yeah, I guess like I didn’t, I maybe found the pace of life.
Too fast. It was people busy all the time. I felt that they valued the culture in general value, very different things. What I valued, love the outdoors, not very much there. He made me grumpy. So I’m like, Oh, grumpy all the time there. But yeah, I would say that I felt like I didn’t belong from when I was a young teenager.
And then try to find where it was that I belonged, spent a lot of my life trying to figure that out.
Nicholas: So how did you, cause growing up. You went through the regular Singapore path, I’m sure you did extra tuition and took your PSLE and all this stuff, something like the love of outdoors, for example, when did you discover that?
Because as you mentioned, Singapore doesn’t have that many places to do a lot of the stuff that you do now.
Ruby Tan: I don’t actually know, but I know that when I was a kid, I loved running around outside. And loved exploring and loved running through the canals or the long guns and like picking up snails and creating these adventures with my friends and, and just running around.
I remember that in secondary school, I joined a police, like, extracurricular activity. It was like a police, National Police Cadet Corps. I joined them just so I could go camping, like, just cause I knew that in the extracurricular activity, I could put up 10 and learn about knots and, and go. on this trip, um, and camp and do kayaking and all that stuff.
And I felt so happy. And then I think that was when it started to become clearer and clearer that I liked being outside. I liked being the far, I liked hiking.
Nicholas: That’s interesting. It makes me curious because when I was a kid, I did grow up doing all that kind of stuff. My parents took me camping a lot, hiking, boating, water skiing,
Ruby Tan: went
Nicholas: to summer camps when I was in my preteens and early teens where we went on river rafting and kayaking and, and I enjoyed it, but it’s not something that is important in my adult life as far as hobbies or, I don’t, I live in Singapore, right?
So I go hiking. Oh, so called hiking. It’s walking, but around Bukit Timah Hill. But camping, for example, I certainly have fantastic memories of a kid sitting around the campfire. It was so nice to roast marshmallows and feed the fire. And I enjoyed then going to sleep in a tent, but now thinking about going to sleep in a tent doesn’t really, isn’t really as attractive for me.
No, that would be gross actually. I’m just wondering if because you weren’t. As exposed to those kinds of activities earlier, if you had been, if you would still have as much passion for it as you do now.
Ruby Tan: Yeah, I’m not sure. I do wonder sometimes now that I’m older, I feel in nature is such an integral part of me.
I can’t imagine that if I had been more exposed to it when I was younger, that it would change my relationship with it. I do wonder if I would have made a career out of it. I’m sure I would still be involved in it because it’s just after that, that, that year when I visited my auntie and then got a bit older, started earning my own money, whenever I traveled, I would book on to rafting trips.
I would book on to a guided walk, I’d book on to a kayaking trip. It was like an absolute must that trip. I was on holiday that I was doing something outdoors because I can’t quite do it in Singapore because of just the geography of it. So yeah, it took me a while before I realized that it was something that I could do as a career because I suppose as a student in Singapore, I wasn’t really exposed to outdoor education and so I never saw that there was like, Oh, here’s an instructor.
Um, and I suppose, I don’t know why it didn’t hit me that I could go be a guide. Because I obviously was, as a client, I’d book on trips with guides. It just never occurred to me, I was like, oh yeah, you could do that. Until much, much later.
Nicholas: So let’s talk about that, about your career path. When you first started working as an adult, He was here in Singapore and what were you doing?
Ruby Tan: I started out in the media industry. So when I finished my O levels, I went to, to Marquette Polytechnic and I wanted, and I, long story short, I. Signed up for a different course, but swapped to the course I should have been doing from the start, which was communications and media management. I enjoyed writing.
I was interested in broadcast and film. I picked that course. And then when I finished, I ended up doing an internship with a publishing company, realized that I really enjoyed writing and, and seeing like my words get printed on like a magazine was pretty cool. And then, so I stayed and did that. Um, and then I ended up writing for Her World, the women’s magazine.
I was there for about two years before I hit that weird quarter life existential crisis. What am I doing with my life? Why am I here? This is not meaningful. It’s super fun. It’s super fun. Don’t get me wrong. We’re going to eat at restaurants and try fitness classes and talk to some really cool people that interview people as well.
It’s a lot of fun, but lacked meaning. And I think I just hit that point where I was like, actually, what am I doing with my life? But anyway, I took a holiday, so I quit the job, but I ran to this random village in Nepal to stay with his family on their farm, and I did, I like planted cucumbers for them and twice a week I’d go to the local village school to just run some fun English activities.
And during that time I was trying to figure out, okay, so what do I want? What do I want to do? And I didn’t actually have any answers, but I was like, okay, then you know what? Just put three things down on a piece of paper. What are your priorities? And the very first thing I wrote down was I have to be outdoors.
I don’t know what job it was going to be, but I got to be outdoors. Two, I wanted it to be a job that, where I could leave positive impact on people or inspire people. And then the third one was, because I love traveling, um, that if I could take people traveling, like that’s a bonus. And then I just left it at that, came back and you’re trying to figure out.
And then just through a series of serendipitous occurrences and internet clicking, I found out that there was a school in New Zealand that has a course that would teach me all the skills that I need to like function outdoors, to work as a guide or an instructor. Um, and so eventually I find out in, I enrolled for the 2017 cohort and then, and then left.
And, and prior to that, so in between starting the course and leaving the magazine, I worked for an international school in the service learning department. And that was when I realized that I enjoyed working with young people and I was pretty good at building rapport. I find myself being really fulfilled when they had like an aha learning moment.
I was like, Oh, this is great. This feels really good on the inside. And then, so it was a combination of that. Okay, let me go study outdoor and then work with young people. So that, that’s how I figured out. Okay. Yep. That’s the path forward. That’s what I want to do. And then, yeah, and then landed in New Zealand, 2017.
My life has never been the same, but so much better. I’m happy. I’m happy.
Nicholas: Yeah. It sounds like you found an amazing fit for what you’re passionate about and what makes you happy to go to work. But let’s go back to quitting your job because I think that’s You went pretty quickly over that, but it’s a huge decision to just quit your job and then go and live on a farm in Nepal.
What was that process like? How long did it take you to make the decision? What were your worries and concerns? How did you feel after you were actually done?
Ruby Tan: Yeah, I don’t know if it’s naivety or privilege or maybe a combination of the two. But I have always felt I always had this piece that, I don’t know, I was always going to be okay in life.
My mom was definitely not happy with me quitting a job before I found another one. But, but I was like, I’ll find something. Like, I, like, I just always had that faith that something will happen. The right thing will come along at the right time. All I knew at that point was I just needed to stop and go figure myself out.
Because if I didn’t have a direction, then what’s the point of signing up for some other job that I’m not going to be happy at? That was I think even from when I was a younger adult, I, what’s the word, I had already had a deep understanding that time is a thing that I can’t get back. That I know that money will always come in, um, but time is something that I can’t get back.
And I think for me personally, I need to do a job where I find meaning and enjoy it. Oh, I do wish I was one of those people who could compartmentalize. I’m just at work and then I earn my money and then on the weekends, I do the things that I love, but I just, I can’t, I wish I could, but I can’t. I would almost say it was not that scary to quit because I either naivety or I had a lot of faith that things will work out.
And I don’t remember how long I was jobless for.
Nicholas: So do you remember how long it was from the time you had the first, Feeling and thought in your head of, Oh, I’m not happy at my job anymore to when you’re actually, Oh, I don’t know, it
Ruby Tan: might’ve been two months. I feel like, yeah, I think it was about two months.
That sounds really
Nicholas: quick. I think if everybody quit a job after two months, when they weren’t happy, there would be a lot more. Like, well, no, I,
Ruby Tan: I probably recognize like now as an older adult paying my own rent. And if I had a family, I don’t think that decision will come as easy. So that’s why I am like fully conscious that me doing these things on a whim was very specific to my circumstance of like my.
Like, um, I only eat with my mouth so that my mom was healthy, financially capable, and if I had a family and other commitments, it would have been quite different.
Nicholas: So when you decided to go for this course in New Zealand, were you thinking then that, Oh, this is, I found the career for me. I’m going to go and do this.
Or was it more of an exploratory move to see, Oh, what is this going to be like? Am I going to be able to do it?
Ruby Tan: Whoa. Okay. So I didn’t know, I was like, this is it. I’ve always dreamed about working outdoors. As soon as I figured out that there was such a career, I was like, Oh my God, that’s it, like, I can be outdoors all the time.
I’m going to take people hiking and teach them how to carry a backpack, teach them how to kayak, take them on these awesome journeys. I’m like, that is the dream. Um, but I remember on my second day of the course. I was feeling so completely overwhelmed. I went to my tutors and I was like, I don’t know if I’m going to top this course.
Like I was just so in over my head as like this Singaporean city girl in like the middle of nowhere in, in New Zealand. I definitely was overwhelmed. Lots of things made me cry. Hiking made me cry a terri bunch. I think the only thing that didn’t make me cry was rock climbing.
E kayaking. Yeah, that was the only two things. Everything else was hard and I questioned it. How are you going to take people on trips like these? You’re struggling while hiking. You’re struggling with your backpack. You’re not fit enough and then you’re like terrified of the river. How are you going to do this?
So definitely a lot of moments of, I don’t know if I’ve just wasted all my money. Not even my money. I’ve had to borrow money from my aunties to be able to pay for the course and, and live there. But yeah, a lot of the times I was just like, Oh, I just got to keep trying. Got to keep trying. Got to keep going back to talking to my tutors on the second day of school.
And I said, I’m really scared. Cause I don’t know if I’m going to pass this course. And without a beat, the two of them were like, you’re going to pop this course. I was like, you think, I don’t believe in myself right now. And they were like, you are going to pop the course. And they were like, had no doubt.
And I just thought to myself, I was like, you guys have seen like hundreds of students come through. And if they think I’m in a path that I’m going to believe them for now, because at that point, I didn’t believe in myself for sure.
Nicholas: And so was that second day, the closest you, you got to feeling like it wasn’t going to work or were there other tough times?
Ruby Tan: Whoa, no, there were definitely pockets of time where I was unsure. It was not just like hard skills, but living skills. Like I hadn’t driven for a long time in Singapore. I had a license, but my family didn’t own a car. So. It’s enough that I realized, I learned that driving manual was important in the industry because a lot of companies will have van to transport gear and they’re often manual.
So I was like, all right, I have to learn manual now in this country. And then culture, it’s like lingo. So it was all these little things that ended up being persevering from the support of my friends and my tutors.
Nicholas: And so you, you passed the course and then were you able to start working in the industry right away or did it take some time?
Ruby Tan: Yes. I was meant to do a second year of the course. The school failed an audit, so they weren’t allowed to enroll international students. And so for that reason, I could not continue my second year, which I was really gutted about because a couple of reasons, one, I love my classmate. I wanted to hang out with them.
True. Cause second year would give me a diploma. So I would graduate with a diploma at the end, but because I’ve only finished the first year, I now only have a certificate. So after spending all that money, I now only have a certificate, but I scrambled any way to find a job so that I could stay in the country.
And I ended up working with an outdoor center.
Nicholas: We’ve talked to several people on the podcast who. Don’t have traditional careers. And as we always mentioned, Singapore is a pretty rigid society as far as the life path goes, everybody knows what’s the quote unquote best. Best way to go through life and graduate and start your family and all this.
Ruby Tan: Yeah.
Nicholas: But, but obviously there’s a lot of people out there who don’t follow that path. And those are definitely the people I’m interested in talking to as well. So what did your family and friends back home think about when you embarked on this adventure?
Ruby Tan: It was really funny because most of my friends were like, Of course, that’s so you.
And then I remember talking to my mom and she was so upset. She was so upset. She didn’t understand. She was like, you want to quit? So at that time I was working with the school, right? She was like, you want to quit your good job and waste your degree and go work outside? She was like, she did not understand.
And at that point, when you’re a child whose parent is not being supportive, it’s really hurtful. And at that point I had to come to this place of acceptance that like, okay, well, I have to chase my dream without my mom’s approval. And if that sucks, but I got to do it because I knew on the inside, this is what I need to do.
This is what like my spirit’s calling for. And obviously when I was able to move away from the pain, I understood why she reacted that way. I know she didn’t talk to me for two weeks. Um, I understood why she reacted that way. My mom, um, grew up in poverty. And so for her, like job security is a really big thing.
Money is a really big thing. I understood why she was like, what you’re like, not even going to work for a whole year. You’re quitting your job and you want to work like outside, like with money. How do you look after yourself for that? So once I started working, I actually, for me, in order, cause I understood where she was coming from, a place of concern, but it comes out in a hurtful way.
I feel like after several years of that. She finally relaxed and realized that I was fine, that I was happy doing what I was doing and I was earning enough money to stay in a nice place. I wasn’t like renting a terrible place, I was able to eat good food, had good experiences. So she stopped ending the phone call with, So when are you coming home?
Ring her and I was like, What’s the point? I don’t want to . Yeah. So she’s like way more relaxed now, uh, about it. But it was hard. It was very hard. Like just feeling like I didn’t have the support our parent. That’s good. Yeah.
Nicholas: I think it comes from a place of love for sure, but
Ruby Tan: nothing. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicholas: If she didn’t raise you to be a good and strong and independent person, then you wouldn’t have been able to make that decision for yourself.
No. I, so in the end, yeah. She should be proud of you and of how she did as a mother to,
Ruby Tan: yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope so traditional Asian hair. They don’t give me too many words of affirmation. They just like you good. All right. Houston, that’s her love language.
Nicholas: So then you ended up moving back to Singapore during COVID.
And how was it coming back? Was this, did you have reverse culture shock? Were you?
Ruby Tan: Oh, Nick, that was actually like one of the worst times in my life. I’m not saying as I suppose a fairly privileged person, I was in a long distance marriage throughout my course and subsequent years of work. And then it just too hard, too much.
We had issues. And I just thought, okay, I need to prioritize my relationship. And so with a very heavy heart, I had to come back. So I, and then that’s the thing. It was like everything fell into place. There was a position open at this international school that I was working at. And the timing all lined up for, I was like, huh.
And I always think to myself, it’s meant to be, it’ll happen. And so it did. So I came back and started work with the school in August of 2019. And then so obviously shortly after COVID happened, so I said yes to this job because the role involved a lot of travel, which meant I’d be out of Singapore most of the time.
Um, doing outdoor things and then coming back. And then I, I, the school, international school, pretty well to do. So they would also send me on like occasional trips further. Well, I got to go whitewater kayaking in Nepal, which is amazing. All paperwork. Anyway, so then COVID happened and that was probably the time in my life.
I almost feel a little vulnerable talking about it because it really was like, I really did get to a really bad place and I had to talk to a therapist and that really helped. So yeah, I was like depressed a lot. And I was also trying so hard to not make my partner feel guilty. Cause when I made a decision to come back, I knew that I had, like, I knew that it was my choice.
So I didn’t want it to be like a, eventually I get resentful of him because like you made me come back. Cause it wasn’t that it was like, I chose to come back and I had to walk away from this place that I finally found home and I had to walk away from that. I didn’t know when I was going to go back. So.
Yeah, reverse culture shock. I went from just walking down the street to when I walk, I have to make calculations of who’s going to cut into my path and if there’s a random auntie who’s going to stop and use a phone in front of me, I gotta chew up and yeah, so that’s pretty rough. I think I didn’t really process grieving, um, museum, and eventually learned from a therapist that because I didn’t have that process, that’s why festering on the inside.
And then, and then when COVID hit, it really made just everything extra, extra worse. I was like, Oh, I can’t go out anymore. It’s like my worst nightmare. I’m stuck in Singapore. I can’t, yeah. So that was, that was pretty rough. And then once borders started to open. I did another crazy thing, which sometimes I think I’m like, huh, maybe it was one of those times where it was a mistake.
I left the school in July, 2020. Oh, was it 2021? And I thought I could go back to New Zealand, but I couldn’t. And I ended up traveling the travel channel with South Korea opened. I went there and then I went to Turkey to visit a friend. Then I interviewed for a school. South Korea, and they just do seasonal work.
And then I got that job and that kickstarted the cycle of working overseas, coming back to Singapore, working overseas, connecting, and then eventually finding my way back to
Nicholas: New Zealand. We’ve actually talked about this before, but I remember you telling me about that feeling of like grief and losing New Zealand, which was your new home.
And, but I didn’t, it didn’t click until now that I’ve actually had that feeling before. The second time I moved back from China, it was, that was end of 2007. So I was 27. And I’d been living in Shanghai for about two and a half years. And I, it was the right timing to move back, but it was also propelled by these issues that the school couldn’t renew my visa or what have you.
I, but it wasn’t for me. I think it wasn’t so much of feeling like I lost a place that was my home. Although there was some of that. But it was more like the freedom and the like a completely different world, which I can imagine it’s, it’s the same from New Zealand or Singapore to New Zealand. And back. So China was living in Shanghai, 25 million people or completely opposite of where you are in New Zealand, but completely foreign and exotic in a different kind of way.
And going back to. Where I was from and I was gonna restart going to university there and all these things that was just like felt like going back to Daily life. Whereas the last two and a half years, even though I was working and I was doing all these things, it was so new and different that it felt like an adventure all the time and it felt like a completely different world.
So it never really clicked before, when we talked about this, that, that actually, I do know that feeling. So do you, but do you think the. Was the main challenges that you were having and how poorly you were feeling was that from leaving New Zealand and not being able to stay there, or I guess it was probably compounded when you, the job that you took with the school, you weren’t able to do what you were expected to be able to do and go out and travel and lead groups to other countries.
Ruby Tan: I think when I first left, it was just the feeling of, oh man, I had my dream life and I had to walk away from it and I chose. I couldn’t even blame anyone. And I suppose I was also trying to be careful to not do that because I make my own choices, but it was like, I had spent, so from when I was 16, went to New Zealand when I was 29, 13 years of dreaming of living somewhere else where I could be like myself.
And so when I walked away just a mere like a year and a half ish later, I was just like, I wanted to stay forever. I’d made friends and I had, it’s just, I just having that life, like I could go on a wind drive off to some mountain and, and chill there and I can, it’s, I can message friends be like, you want to go see kayaking, sweet, let’s go.
And then coming back to nothing, none of that, none of that. And yeah, it was definitely the, like all of it. And yeah, I think just the, wow, it took me so long to find home. I had it. Now I have to walk away to prioritize something else.
Nicholas: So now what? Seven or eight years later, and you’re back in New Zealand, looking back, is that journey of moving back to Singapore and then having to find your way and be able to eventually find that life that you want to live again?
Do you think you’re better off from having gone through that or do you wish that you just stayed in New Zealand the whole time?
Ruby Tan: Wow. That, not sure how I’d question Nick. Damn. Whoa. Wow. That’s high. I feel like the textbook answer is to say, no, I wouldn’t do anything differently because then I wouldn’t turn out the way I did.
I don’t know if I could have avoided all of that. I would call it trauma to me. Being stuck in Singapore was like traumatic to me just because of who I am. I know it’s It was, you know, the worst place to be, but just getting who I am, it was very hard. Like, it would have been nice to skip all of that because, um, it’s actually affected my mental state now.
I had a lot more anxiety than I used to as an instructor and it, I am upset about it sometimes because it affects my confidence in myself when I’m outdoors. So obviously, when I was starting out, I had a lot of insecurities, but then like, I, I caught myself in an uncomfortable situation because I knew that would make me a better instructor.
I am so much more hesitant now because of this anxiety, and I, and I, you’re really upset and frustrated with it, but I haven’t come to terms with it yet, but yeah, I do wonder if I didn’t go through that, would I have the new level of anxiety? Cause I didn’t used to be like that. So yeah, that’s a hard one, Nick.
I don’t know. Cause I suppose. The truth is you can’t turn back time, but I think maybe I made the best of what happened. I can say that I am proud of myself for the growth that I’ve had through that hard time. Um, it definitely made me more emotionally mature and resilient, but it has also given me a new set of issues that I’m still working.
Yeah.
Nicholas: So that, sorry, that anxiety is that, uh, coming from afraid. You being afraid you’re gonna lose everything. Again, if you can’t keep working for the same company or what is the anxiety coming from?
Ruby Tan: I think it’s just a new, uh, what do I phrase this? Like my body doesn’t feel that brave with discomfort anymore.
If that makes sense. Like maybe my tolerance for discomfort used to be like here, but now that I’ve gone through that state, like just maybe way more protective. So my boundaries for discomfort is now here. Okay. Where it used to be here. So I had way more tolerance for feeling uncomfortable. Um, feeling like impure, but now I’m like, I’m just a lot more protective.
And so whenever there’s something that feels uncertain, my body’s, Oh, I don’t like it. Go, let’s go back to certainty. And it’s sad because I feel sad for myself because I used to pride myself on being okay with uncertainty. Look at me, this freaking Singaporean 29 year old, like not even some young person, right?
Like almost 30, goes off to New Zealand to study this thing, like in the outdoors, crazy environment, and did all the crazy things and survived it. And we’re like, yeah, and one wants to embody that. And then now I’m like, oh, I just like ask more questions. I like worry about the weather more. I like need to know things that are so I.
It is something that I’m working. So I think, yeah, it’s just that my tolerance for uncertainty had become smaller because my body reacts so much more strongly to uncertainty because of scoring through COVID in Singapore.
Nicholas: And so once you were able to start going back out of Singapore and you were working with the kids in Korea, taking them on outdoor activities, how long did it take you to start to feel that you’re back on the right track?
Ruby Tan: Oh yeah. Yeah. Really quickly, as soon as I’m in a different country. As soon as my tap is, my, my schedule for the day, like meet students, run intro, briefs them about the week, check their gear, teach them how to pack a bag. I’m like, I know this stuff. This is me. This is what I love doing. I’m good at it, but definitely very quickly.
Definitely first, a couple of jitters, cause I remember my first like South Korean season, so the job in the, with the school in South Korea and my very first one after COVID, I definitely was a bit nervous. I was like, can I still do this? Do I remember how to teach a kid how to pack a backpack? Hey. But then as soon as I started, like, I was like, Oh, I do know how to do this, you know, it just comes back.
So, so then it was, yeah, I was very happy. And then also I was now again, once again, amongst people who love the outdoors. So it was very easy to like, who wants to go climb this mountain on our day off? You know, wants to go climbing, let go to, We were in Incheon in Songdo, so which is like an hour and a half by public transport to Seoul.
Wow, who wants to go into Seoul to have a meal and so it was so nice being among the like minded people and then exploring a new country again. Not so new to me, like a new, like, not Singapore, outside, outside of Singapore, yeah, to go eat different foods and Hear different languages being spoken on the street.
Nicholas: Yeah, and, and living somewhere is, is always different than, than just traveling there.
Ruby Tan: Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, we had a staff apartment, so a bit different to staying in a hotel for sure.
Nicholas: So this also might be a difficult question, but theoretically or hypothetically, do you think someone like yourself who doesn’t want to follow the traditional career path and feels called to?
Um, do something else, especially outdoors. Do you think if for some reason, and you could not, you only could live in Singapore, could you find a fulfilling and work path?
Ruby Tan: I think about this a lot. Cause I suppose if for any reason there was another COVID and I had to be, I had to leave New Zealand, my passport’s thing for, so that’s where I’m going.
I think about that from times. And I think, and in the month. grief that would occur, I probably have to, I probably have to find a way. I think there will always be, because nature is such a big part of me, then if I go back there and say I wasn’t allowed to travel, there would always be just this really big part of me that I couldn’t express.
And so I wouldn’t be living my full life. So the, it does scare me, the idea that, Because, wow, like how much, like, how deep do you want to go? Can I talk about trigger warning topics? Okay. All right. Well, I’m trying not to judge myself for it. Cause sometimes when I think about it, I’m like, I judge myself. Oh, come on.
It wasn’t that bad. But I basically got to a place where I just wanted to kill myself. Cause I just thought, given who I am, if I can’t express this really big part of myself, then what’s the point of living? So I got to that really bad place and obviously it was gone for a depressive episode would understand the spiral.
You like get to a bad place, everything’s shit. I mean, you just keep going down and you really need external help for yourself out. But yeah, I, living a meaningful life is very important to me. I wonder if I, maybe I continue with consistent therapy. I would find some way to cope, find new meaning in life.
Um, but that’s what gave me, I’m just like, this really big part of who I am. I can’t express them the point. Let me just leave. And then I believe in reincarnation. Maybe I come back, try again. Yeah. So that was, I think I’m unsure. I, I I’d like to stay optimistic and be really mentally resilient and be like, Oh yeah, I could probably do it, but I’m not sure.
I think, I think I could, but I need a lot of help. I have no problems admitting that I would be.
Nicholas: With, okay. So maybe let’s move on to something a bit lighter.
Ruby Tan: But I don’t mind. I was just like, Oh, do you need like a trigger warning on this episode?
Nicholas: No, I think it’s important to, to share, I think, thank you for sharing and it’s important for people to hear that I think looking from the outside, it was a combination of factors where you’re at that, that would put you in that state of mind.
And if you had, it wasn’t such an X, all of that coming together at one time, you likely wouldn’t have ended up feeling that way, but of course we’re glad. You came out the other side. So this does tie in with your passions and working. I always think that’s super interesting. Cause I always see on your day off, you go and you do some of the same activities you do for work.
Like you go for a sea kayaking trip or you go climbing. So it is such a big part of your life and what you love to do. And how does that’s just hard to relate for me in my line of work, right? On my day off, I’m not going to go and do some more type of, I guess I do if I’m preparing for a podcast, but I’m not going to go and do the exact same thing I do for work, right?
When you are working and doing the things that you love, the activities that you love, taking people, sea kayaking, taking people, climbing, hiking to these beautiful, beautiful terrains. Do you still have a work mode and a recreation mode or does it blend together?
Ruby Tan: Yes, actually I will, I’m happy to speak to that because this is a problem in my industry, the outdoor industry.
We work outdoors, right? Like, people come on holiday, so their break is our work. Um, students go on camp, like, I’m, I’m working and yes, the place is beautiful, but I am like 24 7 on it. The kid’s sick, I’m dealing with it and I’m dealing with it in the wilderness, you know? Um, I wake up, like, before the kid get up, I go to sleep after the kid go to sleep.
It’s a really long day. So I can tell you for a lot of times, when I’m on my day off, I am not outside. I’m sitting indoors, watching TV with a bag of chips. And then I feel guilty. I’m like, are you even an outdoor lover? If on your weekends, you’re not sending another mountain, going on a climb or going down a river.
And I felt like that for so long because during the week I work, I’m so tight. I’m mentally and physically drained. And then the weekends I got to do chores too. I got to do laundry, I have to buy grocery. So all of that. And then, and then I, uh, I’m just too tired to do anything. And now that I’ve met lots of people in the auto industry, it’s a very common feeling of guilt.
So we all love to do cool things outside, and then we secretly hide indoors on the weekends and then we don’t tell anyone and then we see you bad because we’re not outside recreating. And then the more you talk to people, the more, and I’ve met people who kayak like. Grade five rivers. So rivers are like one to five, five is like insane.
From that to like beginner instructors. And we all had the same thing. We’re like, actually, I’m so tired. I don’t want to, I don’t want to go climbing. I don’t want to go hiking. I just, I need to do my chores and watch TV. That’s great. Yeah.
Nicholas: So talking a little bit more about moving to a new country and being basically on your own.
Ruby Tan: In the outdoor industry, work is seasonal. So wherever you go to work, and especially as well for me, my visas are like tied to my employer. So I can get a visa because someone’s hiring me. So my first important call for making friends is my workplace. And then again, everyone’s like minded. So you just go there, you show up on your days of work, you meet new people, and then you ask who’s free on your day off.
You ask if they like to do this thing that you like to do, and they say yes, so you just, you make friends, and then you go do the thing together.
Nicholas: Yeah, that’s, I’ve lived in talking to you, talking about your workmates. And I think probably when you went to Korea, it was very similar. And when you went on your course, it was similar.
I’ve been in those situations a couple of times where it’s like a group of people and you’re all in something together. That’s a bit unusual or forces you to be around each other a lot. And then you become friends outside of. Whatever it is you’re doing is like, you know, I would guess that going through military training or, you know, some of those situations are similar.
Uh, not as extreme, but the, you can meet a lot of different people with very different backgrounds and personalities, but you have a bond that it goes beyond. Uh, Casual friend that you meet in a normal life setting.
Ruby Tan: Yeah. And I think too, I think the industry just lends itself to that, but I suppose when you join a new, whether you’re a nurse or a banker or a doctor, you meet your colleagues, everyone can be into different things, but if you go work as a sea kayak guide, everyone likes kayaking.
Nicholas: Yeah. So one other, one other aspect I wanted to talk to you about moving to New Zealand, or it could apply to other countries as well. So for me, I grew up in the U. S. as a minority, the West coast, Seattle, I grew up, there’s certainly lots of Asians, but there’s, we’re still not, it’s pretty left wing and open minded there, but not 100%.
There’s still things that happen. And so it was interesting. I didn’t, it wasn’t. Deliberate or conscious. But one of the things that I enjoyed when I moved to Asia was I felt like I could be completely anonymous. Like when I walked down the street, I’m the same as everybody else. And so for you, it’s the opposite, right?
You’re moving to a country where. I don’t know. Does, does New Zealand have a lot of Asian population?
Ruby Tan: Uh, it depends on where you are in the bigger cities. There is a bigger population of Asian, like, um, immigrants and, and their children. So where I guess in some places, I suppose where I have worked, if I’m working in, as a guide, then there’s lots of tourists in that town anyway.
So I could still see lots of diverse faces. And then I moved to Christchurch. Is it like second or third biggest city in New Zealand? So definitely stronger Asian presence. Lots more Asian restaurants, which I love. It’s yeah, I maybe they’re the only place where I felt the most, Oh my God, I am like the only Asian.
Who’s gray mouth because obviously in the middle of nowhere.
Nicholas: So I always like to ask this question, which is if you five years down the road, if you look back from this point forward, what is going to make you happy? What is going to make you feel like you’ve been successful over the next five years?
Ruby Tan: I feel like at the moment, I am happy to continue with my line of work.
I feel like just being here, I’m successful. I chased a dream. I am working. I am. Well regarded in the industry amongst companies that do know me. Um, I nurture young people to discover themselves and hopefully develop into good kinds, human being, keep myself healthy by going out because I have the freedom to.
I, I would think that even if it was status quo, I’m doing the same thing five years from now, I still be happy. It sounds like you’ve got to make that. yeah, I know. I’m like five years now. It’s the same. I’m still good. Typically.
Nicholas: Okay, Ruby, it was great having you today. So if people want to get in touch or want to ask about what it’s like working in the outdoors industry or have questions about living overseas in New Zealand, where can they find you?
Ruby Tan: Instagram is probably the best place. So my handle is KRubyTown. Um, yeah, always happy to answer questions from anyone about. Anything. Really. Anything.
Nicholas: Awesome. Thanks again for your time. It was great to talk to you. No,
Ruby Tan: thanks, Nick. We’ll talk
Nicholas: soon. Thank you for listening to Before We Get There with your host, Nicholas Braman.
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