In this episode of Before We Get There, host Nicholas Braman interviews Abby Ling, an experienced marketer who currently leads the Singapore branch of an international marketing agency. Throughout the conversation, Abby shares insights into career planning, setbacks, and the challenges faced by working moms. She discusses her experiences with various organizations like TEDx Singapore and her journey from Beijing to Singapore. Abby emphasizes the importance of networking, community involvement, and the notion of ‘integration’ over ‘balance’ in managing professional and personal life. Her tips on job searching, adapting to new environments, and supporting working parents offer valuable guidance for listeners at different stages of their careers.
Guest Links:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbysaysthat/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbyling/
Podcast links:
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Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/before-we-get-there/id1775182252
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Website: https://nicholasbraman.com/before-we-get-there-podcast/
Nicholas: Welcome to Before We Get There, the podcast where we explore people’s journeys, how they got to where they are, what keeps them pushing forward, and where they eventually want to get to.
I’m your host, Nicholas Braman, and today I’m joined by Abby Ling. Abby is an experienced marketer, Who currently leads the Singapore branch of a fast growing international marketing agency. She previously worked in companies like Meta, Ogilvy, and McCann. She also is an active networker and community volunteer for TEDx Singapore and the People’s Association.
In this discussion, we talked about career planning, setbacks and career breaks, networking tips, challenges for working moms, and much more. Enjoy the show. Hi, Abby.
Abby Ling: Hi. Hi, Nicholas. Good morning.
Nicholas: Good morning. It’s great to have you. So I thought we’d kick off the conversation because recently we have been working together for this year’s TEDx event, which is coming up in December.
And I know that you’ve been volunteering with the organization for a long time. So maybe you can share how you got started with that.
Abby Ling: It’s a long story. I’ve been living in Singapore for 40 years, so right before I came to Singapore, I was, uh, doing similar things in Beijing, actually. So I was moved here, I was thinking, okay, do we have similar, um, organizations I could partner with, uh, volunteers to do a kind of community works.
Then TEDx came into the picture. Yeah, I started my first volunteering session with them, 2010. Yeah, but I paused 2015 because I had my daughter that time, and then I was brought back to the community, left here again.
Nicholas: That’s great. Yeah. It’s been a really great experience for me as well to get involved and see how the process works with speakers and putting together.
The event, I think I’ve always watched TED videos online. I didn’t realize until very recently when I saw you posting about it that there were actually local community events, which are really nice for people in Singapore to be able to attend as well.
Abby Ling: I’m very glad that you decided to join us as well. I think it’s quite difficult for working professions because one, it’s very time commitment.
And second, I think it’s not like a community neighborhood volunteering that you can just go and then be there. It’s unlike neighborhood community volunteering works. It really requires a lot of thinking, logic, thoughts, collaborations. Yeah, I think it’s like another job. Yeah.
Nicholas: No, actually, I agree with you because I’ve done some volunteering.
Over the years here in Singapore, for example, there was one time that we went with people with special needs and took them to the Asian Civilizations Museum. Also done some work with a program that delivers food daily to people who need it, uh, help with, with getting enough to eat. It’s great to be part of something that’s helping people who need it.
The disadvantage, sometimes the way the volunteering is laid out, it’s not very efficient, or you don’t feel like you’re able to really value add, you’re just a pair of hands that are there to do something, which sometimes is necessary by nature, um, of what’s needed to be done. But I, I agree that with CAD it’s different for professionals as well.
We can help build up our skills, build up. Our teamwork and collaboration at the same time as supporting this event and community, which really does bring a lot back to people who are attending or listening online.
Abby Ling: Yeah, best, I just want to add, best is the network. So as you and me are part of the community, Actually, I’m very grateful that I decided to join it when I first came to Singapore, it really brought my, um, network to know so many people, um, from different industry, different stage of life.
And then we can really get lots of wisdom from them. And then you can expand really from there.
Nicholas: Let’s dig into that. Cause you mentioned you’ve been in Singapore for 14 years. Now it’s been 10 for me. Can you share, um, how you ended up coming to Singapore?
Abby Ling: Yeah, it’s like a family decision. I was working in Beijing, China, with actually a very interesting company.
I won’t call it DreamWorks, but it’s close to there. Me and my husband, we decided to have a family. We need to set up the logistics, so we have to really fix a city to live in. So Singapore, Beijing, Singapore, Beijing, and we ended up.
Nicholas: Wow. So it was a very conscious decision and plan on your part.
Abby Ling: Yes and no.
I think sometimes, yeah, you have to really choose where it’s easy to start. I would say for like new couples, Singapore is more friendly if you understand a little bit about the Singapore government’s plan and also the international setting, city settings. So in Beijing, it’s very, I won’t say not included inclusive enough, but I think it’s very, very different.
Yeah, and also I think Persa really played a very big part in this decision making. It’s my ex boss in this close to, next to dream company. So it’s my ex manager, so she is a female leader. I really heard a lot and I really asked her, hey, should I stay and should I go? She was like, um, you can find your job anytime.
You can find your dream job anytime. You can just keep looking for life partners. What’s hot? You pick the pen. So I think nowadays if you’re thinking in those feminist narratives, it may not sound so correct, politically correct, but I think I really listen to that advice and I think I made the choice, made the right choice because if you look back, I actually went to more jobs I won’t think I would join if I were in Beijing.
Yeah, I think that’s the stage, the platform that, that Singapore really gives me.
Nicholas: Okay. So you were already with your husband and then you made the decision together or he needed to come here and then you had to decide whether or not to go with him.
Abby Ling: So, uh, he is in Singapore. He’s working. Um, back then he, he was working there and I was working in Beijing and then we decided we want to move together and then that’s why we need to really pick a city because we don’t want to do long distance.
Nicholas: Yeah. Okay. So you had to choose whether he comes to Beijing or you go to Singapore. Yeah. Okay. So did you, it sounds like you, maybe you were having some doubts about it before you made the decision?
Abby Ling: Yeah, first, I really love my job, uh, back then it’s with, I was a top, uh, FMCH company and then it’s marketing role is like a combination of everything and it’s overseas, like the greater China, everything.
And I don’t have any experience working in English, um, um, environments at all. So Singapore to me, it’s, uh, I would say lots of challenges altogether, like a new country, new job market. new partner to live with.
Nicholas: Yeah, that’s a lot of new things all at once. So how was the adjustment period like? How did it take you?
How long did it take you to feel comfortable?
Abby Ling: It took me 11 months to get to my first job. So it’s never easy, but I think the best is first, my partner is super supportive. So that’s why we can been to so far, right? I like the title of your podcast. And, um, second, because of the community, I had a TEDx and I also, um, meet some friends was from Barkham is another tech community that people come together to share ideas in a very informal way.
Yeah. I think I will say the people from Barkham is even more diverse. Like, uh, from different, um, countries, really, countries I never heard of, and the student professors, yeah, different professions, lawyers, inquiry, yeah, so lots of, uh, different, um, people, so I think because
Nicholas: of those communities. So I definitely want to go back to that job searching part, but what you mentioned there about communities, that’s something I, I’ve noticed about you, and of course, we met.
Um, quite a few years ago at something that was work related, uh, uh, startup competition that I was running and we’ve, you know, basically kept in touch since then. But I have noticed that you are very social, involved in a lot of communities, always meeting different people, ex colleagues, networking with new people, and as someone who is pretty introverted.
I want to understand, is that part of your personality? Is that something that you’ve always done? Or was that experience coming to Singapore and being new and not knowing people? Did that kind of help you develop that skill and that pattern?
Abby Ling: Yeah, very good question. You won’t believe it, but I’m an introvert as well.
So every, like, agenda is like, intuitional and designed. And I really fancy a weekend doing nothing like stay at home. But I know I need to meet people to get new perspectives and sometimes to help people because there are instances that people will need to talk to me for some matters. I think, uh, push myself out of the comfort zone and try to trust people.
And maybe you do something online because we have different technology tools. Like you can maybe chat with the people. I get very tired if I attend an event, chatting with people after one day. But I think it’s really about the perspectives, the ideas I can get, like knowing different people are doing different interesting things and seeing Witness the appearance of their life and then sometimes it’s some wisdom you pick up from a session that you can keep yourself going.
For example, yesterday I went to Entrepreneur Talk. It’s a very loose organization. They invite entrepreneurs to share their thoughts about startup life and philosophy. So there is a lady, I never, and actually from the poster, I don’t even expect to get anything from her. But while she’s talking, you realize, oh, she’s so experienced.
She had three startups. She has a daughter like me, and she’s been through a lot of things. Sometimes worried about the salary to the employee. Sometimes she is worried about the business plan, sending to the VC. So you can feel the rig. The richness of her life, which she will give you lots of advice and you get to check to them in person.
You can answer their questions.
Nicholas: Yeah, it’s always nice to hear from people with so much experience and have so much wisdom to share. But I think the challenge is starting a conversation. Is that a skill that you’ve picked up with experience or does it still feel uncomfortable, uh, to you to just chat up somebody that you meet there?
Abby Ling: I think one. I won’t say trade, but what one, um, like, practice is really to ask questions. Then put the focus from yourself to the person. So if I meet you for, for example, I really want to know you, like why you’re here and what you’re doing every day. What’s your top priorities? There’s ones that I met someone with, one who is a CMO, actually, overall networking session, evening networks, networking session.
I actually only give me 30 minutes to be at that event. I really wanna speak to that person because he is the panel speaker. So I just say hi and the person he just cut. All those, uh, you know, small talks at FLE, I, um, see you approach me and then I want to know you and then can you tell me if you have, uh, three wishes you can change the world?
What are the top three things? So you see that he actually shifted the focus from himself to me and then couldn’t stop thinking, Oh, yes, if I can change the world, what’s the top three things I can do? Or maybe Pokemons, yeah, we can do something for them. So I think I see his technique. So he shifted the focus to me and keep me talking.
And at the same time, I’m very impressed by his technique. He asked a very good question. Yeah, so the conversation went on for about 20 minutes. That’s like a trick that you just focused on the other party and then you ask questions.
Nicholas: That’s a very good technique to start off the conversation. And I think when you ask people questions, it’s also easier for them to talk.
They don’t have to think of something to say when you ask a good question like that. They can immediately answer. So let’s go back to your journey. When you first moved here, 11 months is a, is a very long time. And I think a lot of people in our industry have been going through restructurings, our tech industry in general is not doing great right now for a lot of people.
Was that the longest time that you were in between jobs in your career?
Abby Ling: No, not actually. So I think there’s another time. The um, sabbatical we call it is after. My daughter was three years old and then there’s a couple of changes in life. We moved house, my daughter changed at school. My husband went to a new company, startup.
It’s very hard to cope as a family so I stopped one year plus, maybe 14 months. Just now you were asking me about my 11 months when I first came to Singapore. There are two things I want to really share. I do have offers. Before my first job, but it’s not something I really want to grow from there. So I have a sales job offer, which is okay as a starter, but I don’t want to really do sales.
No, I want to do marketing. I want to be in advertising agencies. So I think one thing is to be firm about your choices. Because if you start, Or the, the, the wrong foot. Actually, it, it’s very hard for you to really get back to your, um, path you were talking about like career development, your path, right?
How you want to plan your career, your, um, growth in this industry. And we always go ask the, okay, your one year, three, five years, right? So if you start a wrong job for different, for some wrong reasons. Maybe financial and then it’s actually very hard for you to get back. That’s one thing I actually noticed.
And then second thing is keep looking. Yeah, I think people will really feel hard but positive. Keep looking, tell people, the people you trust individually that you need their help. Don’t need to actually shout out on LinkedIn that you are looking for a job. Um, you can just approach people that you know, your classmate, maybe alumni, community friends and no need to have coffee with them or meet them.
Just text them. Hey, this is my situation. And I really want to find a job in kind of like ABC industry as a role expert. I think that really helps. So because I’m one of the meta leaders as well. So we actually have a lot of people in those situation. Yeah. So I think what helps is really. To reach out to people, share with your friends, you want to find a job, you will be amazed at how helpful they could be, how caring they could be.
Nicholas: So we’re both in marketing, and you’ve worked for a lot of really interesting companies and agencies over the years. For me, I worked at an agency early on in my career, and then I moved in house, and I’ve been in house since then. Uh, what is it that you really like about being at an agency?
Abby Ling: Yeah, I think it’s just a diversity because I actually in house serving, uh, like solo client, just one client, three years.
My client will really envy us like, Hey, so many case studies, so many data, so many reports, whatever. And then I only know my brand. And it’s very, I would say one angle, and the kind is actually the top kind of the world, like, like, um, the fruit. I think something is, I feel, I was in agencies, I feel like I’m passively, Receiving a lot of information, I’m not really seeking this information, but as you’re sitting in the office all day and the people are talking and chatting, maybe during lunch, tea breaks, people were chatting about lots of interesting cases, you will say, Oh, this is very interesting, Oh, this is a very interesting case, or this campaign, or this client, so you have a lot of a passive input, and then you don’t need to, I would say, make an effort, but you’re getting those information, that’s what I, my experience.
Yeah, so from there, you can really do your own research. For example, if you have something that you feel, okay, I’m very interested in this campaign, let me dig deeper. You can talk to the people who are running this campaign. I think that’s something I feel very different. Yeah, so my last job was in house.
And then the reason I really left that job is because of I really want to stay in agency to have different experience. Um, working on multiple brand campaign markets. So that’s why I want to go back. Yeah.
Nicholas: And so you’ve also, you also work for both B2B and B2C. What are some of the big differences you find?
Do you find it actually, it’s all just marketing and it’s really more similar than people think or, or are there big differences?
Abby Ling: I would say ultimately they are the same because B2B decision makers, they are people, they are everyday people as well. I think the treatments might be different, meaning the channels we selected or maybe the message, sometimes it will be different.
But ultimately I feel it’s the same. And you know what, when I got to work on my first B2B client, I have no experience. I actually asked the headhunter, are you sure you are bringing me to this, this client that I don’t really worked on any B2B campaign before? They are like, fine, because the methodology, the fundamentals, you just need the, you know the formula.
So I think ultimately they are the same thing, but people have different expectations. For example, if you are working on a B2B campaign, people will expect less funnier humor, but you will be amazed at how a humor company was still working for B2B clients.
Nicholas: That’s, I think that’s interesting because definitely a lot of people stick to one track for most of his career.
Another one, um, that you have such a varied experience is that you’ve worked for A lot of Chinese companies, as well as Western American, and even I believe Singaporean companies, what are the, some of the differences that you see, um, based on where the company was founded or where the leadership is from?
Abby Ling: Yeah, that’s very different. I think I mentioned I left my in house job last year. It’s a Chinese company. Um, actually my current agency is from China as well. The differences I see is really, like you said, the CEO, the, um, the Vision that how they want to shape the company culture wise, like how people recruit that, what kind of people they want eventually.
I think that’s something very interesting. For example, my previous in house company, they are actually very specific in the type of people they are. Looking for, um, and my current company, because it’s the agency. So the CEO is very like AI native. So there are lots of things we want to explore. Like, um, we want to look for different backgrounds of people.
We’re setting up companies around the world to try our limits. Yeah. I think I joined sometimes for the leader. Um, something I can share here is like, uh, there are three pieces. I learned from my Meta manager before. So the three P is first, the perspectives. So you need to find the company that practice the same value that you believe in.
So you’ll be very proud of sharing your employer with your friend, with your family, talking about the products, the business that you’re working on, because working is essentially more than half of our day. Like a weekend time. So I think it’s very important. You should be proud of the company, the product, your team that you can share with your loved ones.
That’s the perspective. You believe the company will really do some good to the society. So the second is people. So you should really like the people, not need to be friends with your colleagues, but at least you admire some of them and you can learn from some of them. And you know that your leader are trustful, they respect you, they have a plan for you.
So it’s the people. The third one will be the potential. So sometimes we join for different reasons. You cannot get everything. So compensation and growth of opportunity. Scope of work, I would say. So it’s a triangle. You cannot get a job. You have a lot of salary. And then the scope is too limited. And then you can’t grow a lot.
It’s not going to happen. So you have to really pick the hook that you want to get from this company. So I think the 3P is like a perspective, people and potential is my golden guide when I’m looking for a job. Those
Nicholas: are, are really important considerations that I think a lot of us, when we are finding a new job or thinking about moving, it’s difficult to take a step back and detach and really.
Examine those factors in depth. Honestly, for me, a lot of the time, it’s just whether or not I have a good feeling about the hiring manager and whether I think we’re going to be able to work together well and make a good team. It’ll be somebody I enjoy working for. So now that you are at a more senior point in your career and you’re hiring people, you’re building teams, does that change the way that you look at things when you’re hiring?
Abby Ling: Yeah, I think this will be still applied and I will always ask the candidates the question, why us? Uh, where you want to be and how we can support you, because I think it’s very important that we give something to the candidate as a company, um, on top of the salary, of course, right? I always say that you are not going to stay with us forever.
No one is only the lucky ones who will stay in one company five, like 10 years, 15 years. But I don’t expect that to happen in especially agency settings, right? But I think it’s to ask the person that, hey, I really want you to, um, enjoy this, right? If one day, two or three years you’re leaving us, I want you to be very proud of sharing to others.
Hey, I learned so much from this period and I really had a good time. I made some star cases. In agencies, your portfolio, your current cases, yours always. As long as you leave the job, the portfolio is still yours. That’s something I always say, right? So you work down a, the kind of a, well, Attached to your career, whatever, right?
Because that’s your work, that’s your efforts. So I think once you figure out what you want to get from the company, the conversation will get easy because we are in agency and we are like a new agency in Singapore. So people came because of the platform. They want to get exposures to maybe original campaigns.
Okay, that’s something I can offer. They want to build really interesting star cases, awarding, award winning cases. So I think that’s something we can work together. So that will become very easy. Of course, I think compensation is a no brainer that as like an employer, that should be always something you talk with your HR that make sure that you don’t really, you don’t really underpay people.
Yeah, you have to be really average at least.
Nicholas: Yeah, those are all good points. And I think if I were a young candidate that was interviewing, it would definitely make me feel more comfortable. Um, so let’s talk about that because you have planned out your career ahead of time and you, you have a lot of experience and would you advise to young people?
Marketers in particular, but anybody who’s young and thinking about their future. What should they be thinking about when they are trying to figure out their goals or what career path they want to have?
Abby Ling: Okay, I’m going to share the reason or the trigger why I left my last job. It’s a question that is actually two facts.
One fact is after the meta laid off, People thinking a lot, people get to think, okay, I work in Mainland for 10 years. Of course, for me, I only worked there one year and then I got laid off. What’s next? So I think I see a lot of career switches from my ex colleagues. Some of them become like lecturers in university.
Some become maybe coaches. Some become like they have their own startups. I feel like people really get to think this is a very important question that maybe we should think right after graduation, like what I want to do as a career is that getting a high pay that in an organization that have very little impact and no security of a job.
Like what we are talking about now. Or do I want more autonomy? What do I want to change with my skills, my experience? I actually jumped to my next job quite fast because of all those worries, the financial responsibilities and the panic. Oh, I want to have a job. But when I settled down with my last job, I actually get to think really what I want to do for next 15, 20 years, because I’m going to work another 50, 20 years before my retirement.
My husband actually asked this super important question to me. What do you want to retire as? Transcribed So what role you want to retire and you want people to remember you, what kind of achievement or things you want to do before the retirement. So I was like, okay, let me think, marketing about 14, 15 years, I’ve never been to Cannes.
Yeah, I never have any case that I, Get awards. I never run a big team, never really share my experience of mentoring a lot of young, creative, young, uh, account, um, servicing people. So that’s why, uh, get me to think, okay, what I want to be. I’m very, I was satisfied with my current role as agency lead. We get to work on very small or big clients.
And we get to work with young and mid tier professionals who want to really make something in this industry. Yeah, I think maybe just ask yourself, what do you want to retire as? And then you can try actually because young people, they have a time to try different things, right? You want to be in house, agency or sometimes you want to do product, you want to do something else, but just ask, okay, before I retired, how far can I go and how can I get there?
Yeah, I think that’s two things. One is the, you know, the phenomenal that get people to think I cannot stay with a company even met at Google forever. Right. And even I was there, my impact, how, how much is it? Right. And, uh, were you. Get out of the company, you can see there is a bigger world, right? People will always say, I actually enjoy my current work because it’s quite different from what I’ve been working in Meta for 10 years, but it’s something new.
Nicholas: Yeah, that’s a great question for everybody to think about and consider. And there’s two things about that that make me think. So first of all, recently for myself, you know, I think we’re fairly similar ages, maybe another 10 or so years until we hit, uh, 50 years old. And, you know, ageism is, is also a problem, not only for junior people, but also for more senior people.
And I think we see with a lot of, uh, more senior people start to move to consulting roles, starting their own businesses, that it can be a huge challenge if you are in an unfortunate situation or trying to change, um, fields or careers once you’re above 50. And so thinking about that maybe earlier in your career before you.
Get to the point where it’s a shock or a sudden unexpected thing that happens to you. And the other part of it is, I think from what you mentioned, I took that. It’s important for us. Not only we think of career planning is happening when you choose your major in college or right after you graduate, but if you think about it, as your career grows 10 or 15 years down the road, it’s important to keep having those checkpoints and continue to think about where you want your career to grow.
So I think as you go through your career and you have experiences and you find Your strengths and your interests, you can continue to develop and maybe pivot where exactly you want to focus your efforts on, and that’s just going to change as your experience gets broader and deeper.
Abby Ling: Yeah.
Nicholas: So another point you mentioned earlier was working moms.
So I think, you know, I’ve had my daughter a couple of years ago and working parents in general, um, you know, have. It just adds to the list of responsibilities and things that you need to do that take time. Can you share from your perspective, what are the challenges that working moms have, and what kind of things need to be done to make things more equitable?
Abby Ling: Yeah, I want to start with a joke maybe. There is a saying that the best partner a working mom should have is another mom. Yeah, it’s not a husband, it’s another mom, yeah. So I think the challenge is definitely that you can imagine. Um, but I think there is something I want to share is there isn’t any like work life balance.
I never call it balance because you cannot get what, everything you want. So I think it’s like integration. So you have to choose a lifestyle and then to really convince people like what you are doing is important to you and then how they are going to support you. My daughter is nine years old, and then she really likes to hang out with me, but I have to tell her, or my husband sometimes will tell him, tell her, your mom is really doing something she likes a lot, and then please support her, and she will plan well, if she can, and then to spend more time with you.
I think that’s something we need to, I won’t say compromise or sacrifice, but it’s something we have to decide. Yeah, if you ask all those professionals, especially female leaders. I don’t see the kid will get the lots of, the similar time. No one is a superwoman. I think you get 100 percent what you want, but you can make your decision and then try to plan well and get support, and then you can still get a lot of what you can, you want.
That’s one thing. And second thing is I want to really advocate for working moms. Mannington Banner is proud of being a working mom because I figured out something like, especially for new moms, they are very clueless, myself as well. So they don’t really feel they can do it. They don’t feel they can still be aggressive, excel at work while having a newborn.
So, but actually we know it could be possible, but you need support, you need plan, right? Something you can show them, we can do it. And then when they see that, they will believe in themselves. They can fit with the style they can do within their family settings. I think that’s something important I figured out while I talking to, um, some younger friends that they just have baby.
They, they will ask me, Hey, how are you doing? You meet, like you said, you are meeting people. You are having a very busy job and then you are still spending time with your daughter. I’ll say, actually, it’s not that hard, but you need to really consistently, consciously to plan it. Maybe educate your partner, get them involved, educate your next gen, let them know actually we can have quality over quantity if possible, right?
I think as we are speaking or advocating for it, people are more conscious about what they can do for us. We just ask for help, ask for, for more, tell people, I need this, I need that, and why I need it? Because I can do my job better and then our family could at a better stage, a better shape. Yeah, that’s something.
Second thing is actually, in this, on this matter, very pessimistic. Because I have this belief that nothing will change significantly, even when my daughter grow up and she’s working. I don’t really expect the world to change, that working mom won’t be an issue or they will have a lot of support. I feel like I don’t expect that to happen, but still I will try to drive it, I will speak.
I mentioned to you that I had my first Chinese podcast because someone, two new moms actually invited me to speak about this Wookiee Mom experience. Yeah, I think we need to share our voices. So my intention for that Chinese podcast is if even one Wookiee Mom hears what I said and she feels like, oh yes, Abby did it, Probably can do it.
I think that’s good enough for me. I changed, I have a one working out, but yeah, so I think that’s like my takeaways right now.
Nicholas: I’m curious why you are pessimistic and don’t feel anything’s going to change.
Abby Ling: Okay. And with the hard question, uh, I had a very awful experience myself in Singapore, I won’t name it, but, um, I didn’t get the support I need, uh, during some stage of the, um, work.
And also I know a lot of, um. male or female leaders, I can see the mindset. So how do you want to really, uh, hire for the team? What kind of a team do you want? Actually, there is a pharmaceutical C suite people I know told me specifically that she will never work with an agency with an AD, a conductor, who is a woman.
Because a conductor is a very challenging job. And then if the woman is married and have a kid, And then the six to eight won’t really believe the woman, this person can do the job well. So that’s something I heard from real life. So, I see there are lots of challenges, as I just shared, actually, um, being like in, on senior roles.
So people want to make their own choices. So if you want to really spend time with your next generation, actually, there are some thing you, arrangement you have to make.
Nicholas: I’m actually personally surprised, maybe I’m too optimistic, but I’m pretty surprised to hear that. But I think as a man, as a husband and father, it also falls on us.
I think the perception that the mothers have or the reality in a lot of cases that the woman, the mother has the bulk of the responsibilities and care and time spent because no one, I don’t think would say the same thing about a man that because you’re a father. You don’t have the time, you don’t have the energy, or you’re not going to put in the effort to be successful just because you’re a father.
And so, I think both, obviously, as people who are in leadership positions should try to change their mindset about that, but also, even if someone like myself who’s not in the position to be making that transition, Statement, um, but by being an active and present father and by taking that workload off of my wife and not having her be the, the main childcare, um, provider will also help, you know, we’ll take a long time, but it can help to start to change that perception.
And hopefully by the time, you know, maybe if not our generation, the next generation is in, in leadership positions that, you know, in the C suite, um, that won’t be the same as it is now.
Abby Ling: Yeah, um, I think sometimes male leaders, they are not really, they don’t want to because they don’t think that way. I can share with you another story which I get to know that actually male leaders sometimes they don’t really intentionally try to stop.
But they just think that way. There’s one case that I know of, male leader. So there is a very important conference. And he told me that he would send a female team members from his team to attend that meeting because this female has newborn and then this leader just try to be caring to, okay, you can stay at home and have more time and you don’t need to travel.
But what do you think of the female, the teammate, thinking I just, that’s why I told my friend that, Hey, why don’t you ask your teammate, your staff, do you want to be at the conference? Or not, because it’s your project, you spent so much time, effort working on that project. And the conference is a very important occasion for you to present the case.
And you ask the woman whether she wants or not. If she wants, okay, ask her what kind of help you need. Again, we talk about help, right? If she doesn’t want, okay, you can sit back and then send another one. So you don’t make decision for her. You let her tell you what she wants. Right. And then just to give you a full support.
I think that’s the thing that this male friend of mine, he really think about that. Like he tried to be caring, but in reality, it’s not the right approach.
Nicholas: Yeah. He was trying to come from a good place, but it may not have been how the person actually felt or what the priority was for them. So yeah, it’s definitely important that she is someone like that, be able to make their own decision or at least give their opinion and their preference about what Works best for them.
So looking forward, I think that you, from what you’ve shared today, you’ve made a lot of progress on where you want to go. Do you still have that dream? What is success going to look like for you in another 10 or 15 years?
Abby Ling: I do have my checklist. I think it takes a little effort and I want to do really good jobs with the team to enable them to do things they want to do.
We’ll get there.
Nicholas: And how about in your personal life?
Abby Ling: Personal life. Yeah, I’m sure I’m doing a lot of things. Maybe you noticed that I’m doing online MBA, which is my bucket list before my 40. Like I want to have a master and then because of COVID and everything. So this program I took out and then I’m still working on it.
So I want to graduate from there and then, yeah. And I’m still volunteering at, um, different communities, TEDx, my neighborhood. Try to value add it to different, um, communities, yeah, and maybe be a model, um, to my, um, daughter that she can see, okay, mom can do things so I can. Having a kid is something really changed my life.
I did something I never expected because I feel I can do something that she look up to, yeah. Especially you would realize how simple children could be, like, they just see, you know, If, uh, if I can tell another story, what really surprised me, how easy it could motivate people, like children, China sent the astronauts over to the space, and then something that we are very excited about, until one time, my daughter noticed that there’s a woman.
Among those five astronauts, she asked me this question. Hey, mom, women can be astronaut. I was like, why not? She said, Oh, because I don’t know. They’re in the suits. I cannot see. Yeah. It’s just because they got back to earth and then getting on interviews and then made her figure out there is a female. You know, children are that simple.
They see and they will feel they can do. So that gave me a lot of thinking. Okay, if she sees a female astronaut, she feels she can do, she can be some of it. And then maybe I can show her. That’s simple. So I think like all those things, a female president, you will be amazed at how many children’s books the presidents are all men.
It’s just, I think the authors, they don’t do that intentionally, but it’s something that you will impact the children. They will get If first, okay, I see only men can be president on my book, it’s that simple. So just through the diversity out there, just let people see, let people feel you can be maybe anyone you want.
If you’re not, you can be as close as to it. So I think that really gives me a lot of power or like motivation as my parenting my daughter.
Nicholas: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Avery, I believe your daughter definitely sees you as a high achieving role model and maybe we will see her. Yeah. waving at us from the space station someday.
Abby Ling: Yeah, no, she has another dream, actually. She wants to be a chemist. Yeah, like the changing, like, like the children. But one thing, what I’m talking is you need to show. And then that’s why I think some people don’t believe how we should have a female president. But I think you, you will never know how it’s important to those like girls.
Nicholas: I think the important thing is that they have the choice and the ability to do whatever it is they want, whether that’s. Something that looks like a very high achieving job or something else that they have a passion for, or whatever the case may be. All right, Abby, thank you so much again for joining us today.
It was great talking to you. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch?
Abby Ling: You can find me on LinkedIn. So just search Abby Lin Yi.
Nicholas: All right. We’ll put sharing in the show notes. Thank you again and have a great rest of your day.
Abby Ling: Thank you. Bye. Bye.
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