In this episode of Before We Get There, host Nicholas Braman interviews Laurence Chinery, a stay-at-home dad and former educator who has lived in Hong Kong and now resides in the Netherlands. They discuss Laurence’s experience of becoming a stay-at-home dad, the challenges of isolation in a new country, the decisions around childcare, and the values he hopes to instill in his children. The conversation explores cultural differences, societal expectations, and personal growth through fatherhood, culminating in insights into how Laurence balances parenthood with his personal projects, like his podcast Dad Dialogue.
Laurence’s links (Dad Dialogue):
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daddialogue/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2dCWuwh4GLOuP7GD8t2XIB?si=6b1e237dde1e41f7
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DadDialogue
Podcast links:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2h9gsrWKH9C1KY1OzR12kr?si=2a4d19970632465f
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/before-we-get-there/id1775182252
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beforewegettherepodcast/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/nicholasbraman
Website: https://nicholasbraman.com/before-we-get-there-podcast/
00:00 Meet Laurence Chinery
03:39 Challenges and Rewards of Being a Stay-at-Home Dad
07:25 Parenting Resources and Community
15:19 Balancing Parenting Roles with a Partner
23:24 Cultural and Societal Reflections
26:27 Moving to Hong Kong: A Life-Changing Decision
39:05 Future Plans and Reflections
Nicholas Braman: Welcome to Before We Get There, the podcast where we explore people’s journeys, how they got to where they are, what keeps them pushing forward, and where they eventually want to get to.
I’m your host, Nicholas Braman, and today I’m joined by Lawrence Chinery. Lawrence is a father of two who has lived in Hong Kong And now is a stay at home dad in the Netherlands. He also has his own podcast [00:01:00] called dad dialogue. We discuss fatherhood, their family decision to take a break while their kids are young, his career and marriage leading to moving to Asia just before COVID and much more.
Enjoy the show. Lawrence, thanks so much for being here with me today.
Laurence Chinery: Yeah, thanks for having me, Nicholas. I’m excited.
Nicholas Braman: Yeah, good to see you again. I was on your podcast, what was it, about a month ago now. So I thought it’d be great to hear more about you and your story because you have an interesting one as well.
And what I wanted to start off with is actually, you are now a full time stay at home dad. And I think that’s definitely the first one on the podcast, and I haven’t met that many just throughout my friendship group and people I’ve known in my life. So maybe you can share about how that’s going, what led you guys to make this decision for your family.
Laurence Chinery: So it started, I think [00:02:00] the idea had always been rattling around my brain a little bit when my wife and I were talking about having kids. She’s like super driven, very ambitious. And so the idea was there when we spoke about what life might look like when we do have kids. And we had our first child when we were living in Hong Kong in the heat of the COVID pandemic.
And again, I think obviously then having a child, as you well know, adjusts your emotional responses to certain things and how you process certain things. So again, this thought was still rattling around, but at this time, my wife and I were both teachers in Hong Kong. And, um, as we discussed on our episode as well, The childcare that happens within Hong Kong, very similar to Singapore, is that you pretty much get a domestic helper, that’s pretty much your only choice, unless you do make the decision to become a stay at home parent, which is even more rare in somewhere like Hong Kong than it is in European countries, at least.
We then had our second child almost two years later, and then [00:03:00] my wife had made the choice for us to go to, she was like the driven one who wanted to get a job in Asia. So she was her desire to go to Asia. We had an amazing time there. But then when we were raising our two kids, I was like, I want to, for a start, I want to be closer to family.
I want to get back to Europe so we can be a little bit closer to family. And there were just some aspects of the way of raising children in Hong Kong that I didn’t want to continue personally. So the choice came that we were going to leave Hong Kong, not quite go back to England where we’re from, but at least come back to Europe.
We landed on the Netherlands, that’s another story for another time as to why we chose the Netherlands. But then came the decision of, okay, what does childcare look like for our kids? My wife got a job as a teacher, I was looking for jobs as a teacher within her school, she got the job out as well as other schools in the area, and we just came to a time of, rather than trying to look into the world of getting a job and then fixing childcare afterwards, we’re just like, our kids are, [00:04:00] at this time, like, six months and two years, basically, so a six month old and a two year old, kind of, when we’re making this decision, Why not do the stay at home dad thing like it doesn’t have to be forever and I think it brought a lot of peace once we had made that choice this is what it’s going to be rather than the stress of having to sort out childcare when living on the other side of the world of oh I signed up to become a full time teacher now we have to find childcare and our kids have never been in a daycare or preschool setting they’ve always been cared for by their helper or that their auntie our helper and or my wife and I so we made that choice we moved And then I became the stay at home dad, and I think initially we’re like, we’ll just do this for a while.
If we discover that there are daycares in the area that work out well, that are nice. If we meet other people that have good experiences with daycares, then we’ll happily go and do that. And then I can look for to get a job. We didn’t want to be in the situation of like, we have to find daycare because we both have [00:05:00] jobs.
And then you have to compromise on, uh, Less than ideal daycare that maybe doesn’t meet values or problems with folks within the setting in terms of their staffing or whatever it might be. That was a situation we just didn’t want to find ourselves in. So we made that choice. And it started with two months, three months, six months, and then it’s coming up to about a year and a half now.
And yeah, I love it. It’s amazing to be able to take this time and really invest into them and see the development and the growth of them as children with the time that we are able to put into it. However. Anyone that has listened to my podcast, I think it maybe did come up in our chat a little bit, it was very isolating, especially moving to a whole new country, of having to try and make new friends, we had no family, like we had one friend within my wife’s school, who we already knew, but except for that, it was then trying to make connections through our church, through other parent groups, whatever it might be, and it was super isolating, even though I would find some of these playgroups and things.
So the podcast came out of a [00:06:00] need to firstly socialize a bit more and also just have a project for something that I could work on by myself because now it’s everything I’m doing is for my wife or my kids, which is a good place to be, but I wasn’t feeling fulfilled enough. So rather than trying to keep the house 100 percent clean and tidy all the time, and rather than baking cookies and muffins every other day or whatever, I was like, I need something that’s different.
I think this podcast is a good idea. And there’s, there’s obviously other origins to it and little things along the way that kind of played into that. By making that project and sticking with it, it really helped me become a better stay at home dad, I think, because it helped me shift and prioritize and compartmentalize.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Nicholas Braman: Definitely. So there’s a couple of things I want to go back to in that, but let’s start off with kind of the last point. Because. I try to, I think I’m a pretty hands on dad and I, I try to be as hands on as, as I can. And I, when my wife was pregnant, I read books and went out [00:07:00] and tried to see what I needed to be prepared for.
And as she’s growing up and my daughter’s two years and three months now, so about the same age as your little one, I think. And so we are, you know, obviously they grow super fast and it’s different every week. There’s a new, they become a whole new person. So yeah. There are, you know, resources out there for dads, but I think it’s also goes back to why you wanted to start the podcast.
Um, yeah, I want to, I’m curious about whether there’s that many resources out there because obviously I haven’t looked for stay at home dads or full time stay at home dads because there’s obviously, I think a lot of that for women and for mothers, but I imagine it’d be a lot less for fathers.
Laurence Chinery: It’s an interesting question because I think it’s, I think being a stay at home parent looks the most different between different stay at home parents, if that makes any sense.
I think when you’re a teacher, you, it’s pretty self explanatory that you go through getting a teacher’s degree, and then you go through your first year of teaching as a [00:08:00] newly qualified teacher, and you have people saying things, and obviously, You could be teaching four year olds or 18 year olds, and you could be teaching just one subject, or at the end of the day, the resources that they need and the qualifications that they need, by and large, are the same thing.
Whereas it comes to a stay at home parent, their actual experience and their environment can look wildly different, and I think their needs in terms of resources can be wildly different as well. There was one book I read as I was making the choice. It’s called The Ultimate Stay at Home Dad Experience, or Dad Guide, I think.
It was by a guy who was in America. Who has been a stay at home dad for a very long time, like way before it was like ever on the realm of possibility. So he was sharing all of his stories of being in groups where like full of mums and not being able to integrate and what have you. And the steps that he took and he was able to make that group and that was such a big thing for him.
And I think one of the things I’ve noticed about the difference between men and women, I’m not, this is a massive generalization and I’m not [00:09:00] trying to say that everyone falls into this bracket. Yeah. I feel as though men want to be a part of one bigger community, like a really big group of people, even if there’ll be lots of things within that group that they don’t necessarily relate to.
So, for example, I’m part of a really big WhatsApp group that’s got nearly 400 dads. In the city that I live in, there’s maybe a couple of stay at home dads in there, but there’s never a need for me to say, Hey, stay at home dads, let’s make our own group. Because most of the needs that we have. Are relating to just parenting in general, um, and those needs can be filled by the other people and sharing stories with others, whereas there are a lot of other WhatsApp groups.
I know in the city that I’m in, which are run in a very kind of strict. This group is for this specific thing only. This group is for parents of twins. This group is for parents of people with learning disabilities. This group is for people of Newborns and whatever it might be and again as a generalization some people might be [00:10:00] do prefer to be in a bigger group, but I think any stay at home dad can take the resources for parenting in general and try and apply it to their own life, let’s say the one area that I do think it does lack in is the nuance and the relatability Let’s see.
Of life and because any book goes through editors and is edited and edited and they might have numbers in there and the research is so important that all the books on like weaning and what to expect all those sorts of books are powerful books are really important but they do lack the nuance of real life.
I think two people talking about their experiences brings that out and can answer some of those questions like i remember talking to the dads. Within the dad group that i’m a part of. Genuine interest like I’ve got a child who’s one and a half and my wife is really pressing me to try for a second but I’m really concerned like I’m really worried and that [00:11:00] concern and worry in theory could be answered by book and books and research but is that really actually going to happen or is it going to be better for that person to sit down with someone at a play date at a library over a cup of coffee and say hey you’ve got two kids I’ve got these lists of questions what’s it like how do you feel and I think I was trying to capture some of that With the podcast, because there are other podcasts out there.
There are lots of that podcast interview similar, but I just think that is the thing that is important and you can’t get that from necessary, like published resources.
Nicholas Braman: Yeah, that’s interesting hearing more authentic, raw conversations rather than something that’s very polished and meant to apply to as many people as possible.
Laurence Chinery: Exactly.
Nicholas Braman: So going back to just the day to day and the adjustment, obviously, like you mentioned, it was not only being not working and being at home full time with your kids, but it was also a new country. What, were there any surprises? Did it take you some time to [00:12:00] get a routine down with your kids?
Laurence Chinery: Not really, to be honest, because I think as long as you try, as long as you start out with something, you can then very quickly adjust based on that experience.
And I think the one thing that I’ve been incredibly blessed with Um, there’ll be, there might be parents listening that are gonna get upset by what I’m about to share, but my kids have always been very good at napping. They’re not so good at sleeping at nighttime, but my son, my oldest son is nearly four.
He still has a solid nap most days, either between an hour and two hours. And my younger one is currently going through a transition of trying to drop his early nap. And most days he lasts, but there are some days where he’s desperate for a morning one. But when we first moved, they would, the napping was like so regular.
It was so like easy. Am I like the younger one would just be in the carrier and he would sleep for 30 minutes in the morning around about 10 o’clock and then both of them would then have a big nap around about one o’clock or so in the afternoon and that didn’t come with the same challenges like you still [00:13:00] have questions you still worry about how on earth am I going to get two kids to sleep by themselves with no other support how like how do i ensure they’re both safe how do i keep them both happy but you just you if you set out your routine first i know i’m going to be back home by 12 30 so that we can wind down for a nap at one o’clock.
Okay. Then you do it and maybe the first few times it doesn’t work very well, but then you start to adjust ever so slightly if you think that you need to start a little bit later, excuse me, or if you need to, you know, tire them out a bit more. Um, so I think the NAP has just been integral to the schedule routine that we’ve had since moving here.
And you just base like the life around that. And because it’s been pretty consistent, it’s allowed us to ensure that our schedule is, it works out. I always say first is the worst, but then you can improve from there. So the first time you try and get your kids to sleep by themselves with two of them, it’s going to be difficult.
Or the first time you take both of them out to a theme park by yourself, it might be difficult. The first time you go for lunch with [00:14:00] them, it might be difficult. There might be challenges, but then you do that and then you can learn and adjust. I think it’s really important to try these different things as a parent, either solo parent or with both parents.
And there’s never something to be concerned about because. The worst is probably going to be the first time you do it and then you just learn and improve.
Nicholas Braman: It sounds intimidating to me. I think that the closest with two, because obviously I only have my daughter now and I think the closest I’ve been is earlier this year we went to Bali and my wife was working, it was a work trip, but we tagged along and stayed in the resort while she was out working.
And even just things like after going to the pool and swimming, coming back and having to give her a bath and get her new clothes and diaper on, and then while I’m still in my wet swimming suit, and then try to finish my shower, get all the chlorine off of me while she’s running around, uh, it was definitely a challenge, but yeah.
That’s really cool how you look at it and are able to make improvements and get used to, to doing all these things. How about with, [00:15:00] I think a common theme you hear for stay at home moms is they can’t wait until the father gets home and takes over and gives them a break just for things like that. Oh, do I have time to go to the bathroom while I have these two kids running around?
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Laurence Chinery: I’m very fortunate that or I’m very blessed and fortunate that my wife is keen to to get hands on when she gets back in because I think this is something that can cause friction. And again, I’m not trying to generalize.
I think it’s really important that every couple communicates their needs adequately. But one of the really big points that I always remember from that book that I mentioned earlier is that he has this whole part about, you cannot assume that your partner is on as soon as they walk through the door. I think we all know that if we’ve had a long day at work, sometimes you might need three minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes to change clothes, have a shower, whatever it might be.
You want to decompress and then go to work. By doing that thing, whatever it [00:16:00] is, you’re then a better parent to step into the, whatever might have happened. And it’s so important that communication is clear. And I made that very clear to my wife. I was like, I know you’re going to get home about five o’clock every time.
Do you want to be hands on as soon as you get in? Or do you want to, are you on from 10 past five, quarter past five? Do you want to message me when you’re on your way home and tell me if you need an extra few minutes? Whatever that looks like. And that has always been super important. It normally she’s fine.
And the younger one will run off to her. Sometimes they’re in the middle of something and they’re chill to, to be fine until she comes in. But yeah, I think it’s super important that is communicated adequately and people’s needs are met because the last thing I want is for her to come home, having had a really stressful day and just want to, whatever it is that she needs to do, change clothes or have a shower, whatever it is, and for me to be like, all right, you know, and then, and then me run away.
The closest thing to that is just that we try and have dinner like fairly quickly. So I, there are times I would do dinner whilst they’re already awake if they’re [00:17:00] preoccupied normally by a television. But, um, yeah, there’s a lot of nuance to that as well. And we try our best to ensure that both people’s needs are being met with that moment because I don’t think anyone wants to be greeted by it.
Here’s the responsibilities you need to do and you haven’t even got your shoes off yet or whatever.
Nicholas Braman: So when she does, when she is ready to. Engage with the kids. Do you hand them off and you go and take a break for yourself? Or it’s just, okay, now we’re taking care of the kids together.
Laurence Chinery: It’s basically straight away into me sorting out the kitchen, getting dinner ready, getting stuff on the table because, yeah, we try to have a fairly early dinner, like 530, 545 normally.
And it’s just doing the housework that I haven’t been able to do. Like I have a, I have like all these reminders pop up on my phone of things I need to do between five and 545. You know, just load the dishwasher, clean up, do a bit of sweeping, put the cover on my bike that’s outside, and then dinner happens, and then we’re doing dinner together.
The one thing I would say is that we have really clear that my wife will then do the, Bath time and [00:18:00] the, the story time time, and then I will do bedtime and that was pretty much every single time. That’s what happens unless one of us have an arrangement that we want to do. If one of us is going out or a different arrangement, that’s just the thing that we know, that’s a foundation of she does that.
I do this and we don’t have to discuss it because we know that’s what’s happening. Um, so there’s a lot of divide and conquer. I think in our relationship, we, we obviously still have family times, all four of us, but I think we’re both, we’re able to be the better parent we can be by. Like you should, for example, she’s let me do this podcast because she’s taking the kids out to the library right now and she just finished for winter holidays yesterday, but she’s given me this time when she’s back and later on and then I’ll take the kids and she can have a time to decompress in the afternoon.
That’s just how we do things most of the time unless we’re doing like a really big event out if we’re going somewhere nice or fancy. But if we’re just chilling at home, normally it’s one person is the one that’s responsible, let’s say,
Nicholas Braman: yeah, I think that’s really important to divide and conquer because it [00:19:00] is tiring, even if it’s very enjoyable and it’s great to be around them, but you do need to sometimes just have a few minutes to yourself and take a break.
One other aspect I was curious about, because I think, I would say, and I don’t think my wife would be offended by this, but she’s maybe not the most traditional mother, and I’m happy to take on more of the duties that maybe some people wouldn’t expect the father to do. For example, when my daughter came home from the hospital, I was the one getting up every three hours and feeding her for the first, until she, she slept through the night, and that sort of thing, especially the first few weeks.
So, And even now, she, she usually, I do co sleeping with her at night, as much as, sometimes she wants grandma now, and quite often she wants grandma, but it’s either me or grandma, it’s, moving from both of you being, from working outside the house, and having a helper in Hong Kong, to you being the full time dad, has there been any Maybe [00:20:00] jealousy or, or worry on her part that she’s not as close to them as, as she used to be or any of that sort of thing, or you’re maybe just that you’re closer to them now than before.
Laurence Chinery: It’s a good question. I don’t think so. I think, I’m trying to think we’ve actually discussed this. Normally most topics come up. I think it’s very clear. My younger one who just turned two, he still is like a mummy’s boy. We’re going through that phase of trying to wean him fully off of breast milk. He still has the occasional snack or comfort.
Uh, So he’s still fully is a mummy’s boy. Cause most nights I will be in their room with them, he’ll either come and lie on the bed with me, we have a mattress on the floor in there, and then a lot of mornings he will get up at 3 or 4 o’clock and just dart off to where my wife is and nothing I can do can stop him.
And I think we’ve had discussions before, even before we had kids actually, my wife, my wife isn’t the biggest small kid person, if that makes sense? She’s a teacher but she loves to teach the older kids, she teaches between [00:21:00] 15 and 18 year olds. And when I was a teacher, I was a primary school teacher and I’ve taught kindergarten as well.
And all of my experience is with smaller kids and it’s really interesting when you actually boil it down into a parent and partnership. What is the experience of either person? Does anyone have nieces or nephews? Has someone had experience of being around a young child before? The conversations that are worth having because they inform some of your emotions and your feelings toward it.
I had a niece and my wife hadn’t had a niece, for example, or a nephew. So she had always said that when they’re little, that your responsibility, cause you’re a little bit more geared to that. And once they’re bigger, that she’s happy. That’s not to say she’s not, doesn’t care for them. She’s an amazing mom.
Um, yeah, I don’t think she would ever feel jealous in that sense. She’s a hugely ambitious, driven person that has lots of goals to achieve. And she knows that she can achieve these goals because I’m holding down the fort. And she doesn’t have to worry about what they’re eating, because I’m worrying about that.
She doesn’t [00:22:00] have to worry about their clothes, buying them new clothes, because I worry about that. She doesn’t have to worry about sorting out, buying nappies, and like, all these sorts of things. In the same way that I currently don’t have to worry too much about our finances, because she is the provider.
And, again, it just comes to this, like, divide and conquer, it’s just how we based our relationship. And this isn’t, This doesn’t work for everyone, right? Every partnership is different and every parenting world is different. Like you said, you co sleep, we’ve made that decision as well to basically do that.
And I think there are some circles that you could mention that in, that some people would hugely jump at you and say, that’s not safe. You shouldn’t do that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I’d really encourage anyone that’s listening to do their own research into it and make their own choices based on their own research and their own thoughts and discussions rather than like a hive mind response, which I feel is like what can happen within some parenting circles, especially in the West.
When it comes to co sleeping and It’s another topic for another day, but yeah, everyone is different. And at the end of the day, your child best and the decisions you make for them is the normally going to be the best one. And you [00:23:00] inform yourself and you try and make the right choice. And if it’s not, you adjust and change.
Nicholas Braman: No, that’s really cool. And I have a feeling that’s how it’s going to be with my wife as well. In a few years when my daughter’s sitting there in the evening doing her homework, it’s probably going to be my wife standing over her, her helping her do that. Maybe I’ll be a little bit more relaxed based on my education, philosophy and history.
But yeah, that’s really cool. But going back to what you just mentioned about your wife being the provider, has there been any pushback or stereotyping or this kind of thing from friends or family or anybody that you’ve had to deal with? Anyway.
Laurence Chinery: I think because we’re like an international and not an international family, is that the right way to put it?
My kids were born in a different country, but because we’ve moved, I think because we’ve moved a lot and then you change your story and you’re meeting new people. So when we came here, like that was the decision, like that was what we’re telling people was like, this is who we are. [00:24:00] No, not really. I think maybe like within our relationship, it’s been, it’s obviously been an important part to think about how we are managing our finances.
Because she’s the one that obviously does all of that, but I’m the one that’s going out and doing the shopping and doing the spending. So we do have to ensure we’re having those healthy conversations. Because our finances do look very different now to when we were both teachers within a private school in Hong Kong.
Like, they’re just different and we have to approach life a little bit differently. But to answer your question, no, I don’t really think If people have had thoughts, maybe they have had thoughts and they just haven’t shared them directly with me. Which is fine as well. I think there is obviously a, how do you, how would you say it?
There is a bit of a hive mind around like the man being the provider. And I think that has been starting to die out a little bit because you don’t just provide finances for your kids. You provide a safe, healthy environment for them to grow. You provide emotional stability for them. There are so many different things that you can do to be a provider [00:25:00] that isn’t necessarily just a case of making money.
I make money or I save money because I really care about shopping around and going out of my way to go to the cheapest stores and do this and do that. Whereas my wife, she really doesn’t like that. So from my perspective, I do make us money because she would just go and buy everything at full price.
Whereas I’m like, no, you’ve got to go to this place and get the discount here. And you’ve got to sign up to this membership to do this and do that. She just, I don’t want to do that. So if she ever happens to do shopping, then the bill might look a little bit higher. So, yeah, I think I provide financially a little bit.
Maybe.
Nicholas Braman: No, that’s interesting. And definitely, I think to your point about making money. First of all, there is it’s I think it’s far easier to make money than it is to be a good parent. While you have these few years where you can be so involved and hands on with your kids, you’re providing far more. Long term value than just the cash.
You could be bringing home if you were working. I think that it’s, it’s fantastic that it works for your family. And you guys are able to do that at this stage. [00:26:00] Cause obviously there’s unfortunately a lot of people that, that just wouldn’t work financially to do that, which is unfortunate. And then there’s the whole other story about, for example, in the U S I think a lot of the time you have to have a pretty high earning threshold to even make it to be earning enough to pay for the daycare outside of the house.
So then people. Don’t really even have a choice. Somebody has, has to stay home and where you’re losing money every month by going to work, which doesn’t make sense at all. So, so then let’s maybe take a step back and you mentioned that you were in Hong Kong and you and your wife, uh, move there together.
Is that right? How do you guys end up in Hong Kong?
Laurence Chinery: So my wife, when we were dating, she told me she was like, I have aspirations to leave England. We’re both from England. We met in England. She had told me I have aspirations to teach in a different country. I was like, okay, cool. That didn’t put me off. Like she told me that on like our first date and I was like, all right, I’m sticking around, like I’m [00:27:00] seeing where this goes thing.
So then she got a job in Sweden initially, and then we were like, yeah, we’re going to do this, we’re going to do the long distance thing. So she moved to Sweden about a year and a half, a year and a bit later. I proposed, we went on a trip to Prague. I like planned this trip. I had to arrange for her to get, take the flight from Sweden to Prague.
And I met her there. And that’s where I proposed, got married in England, and then two days after we got married, I moved to Sweden to join her there. We were there for about eight or nine months, just for the finish. So she was there for a total of two years. And she had only really taken the job in Sweden because she needed to get international teaching experience because she always wanted to teach in Asia.
She knew that’s what she wanted to do. And at the time she actually wanted to teach in Singapore because Singapore often ranks at all the top of the education rankings and charts and they’re very at the forefront of innovation within the education sector. But she couldn’t find a job [00:28:00] for teaching maths at a Singaporean school.
So she found one at Hong Kong. She did an interview. She got the job and then. I was working a really bizarre job because I was, at that time I was, had been working in sales, most of my customer service and sales jobs. So I was working a job in Sweden that was like basically part time commission type base recruiter, salesy, calling people in America because it was like an English speaking job and it’s quite difficult to get English speaking jobs.
I then did a teaching English as a foreign language course online. And then when I moved to, I then applied for jobs. in a, they call it a native English teaching assistant. That’s the technical term because I didn’t have a teacher’s degree at that point. I just had this qualification that allowed me to work alongside other teachers as the English person, let’s say.
So I got a job in a Hong Kong local school at kindergarten and yeah, we made the [00:29:00] move and it was, I don’t know if you remember the protest in Hong Kong, which obviously preceded the COVID and no one really talks about protests anymore because of the timing, but we actually. The airport was closed the day before we were due to fly out.
So this news was coming out of Hong Kong, everyone was messaging us about all these protests that are happening all across the city. And then, yeah, we look at the news, like, Hong Kong airport shut due to stand in protests. We’re like, oh my goodness, or sit in protests, whatever they are. Oh, my goodness.
What have we got ourselves in for? Like, what’s going on? But it opened up. We made the move. I guess the rest they say is history. Yeah, we had a great time there.
Nicholas Braman: So had you ever been to Hong Kong or Asia at all before that, either of you? No, no. Hong Kong is, I’ve never lived in Hong Kong. I’ve only been there a couple of times, but I lived in Shanghai for a few years.
And I would say as far as Foreignness, mainland China is pretty up there. There’s different kinds, maybe in [00:30:00] some less developed parts of the world. It looks different, but. It’s everything is just so different from when you grew up in the West and there’s not a high level of English. I think Hong Kong is a little bit better, but I, Singapore is obviously a lot easier.
Everybody speaks English. English is the national language and you don’t need this obviously still some adjustment, but coming from China, it was like, oh, this is nothing. This is so easy to adjust to, but how about, what was it like in Hong Kong? Everything from Hong Kong is super packed. For example, with, with people compared to.
To most places in the west, the food, all that sort of thing. What were you, what was your destiny period? Like,
Laurence Chinery: it’s really interesting. So it’s an interesting question. And it’s just such an amazing place. Like, I would highly recommend it to anyone because I think a lot of people do use it as a jumping off point of I want to.
So we originally were like, we want to travel Asia as teachers will get a little breaks and weekends and things. And Hong Kong was like our gateway. into other Asian countries. We literally had a list that must’ve [00:31:00] been 15, 20 countries long of where we wanted to go and things we wanted to do, or cities, maybe not countries.
It was amazing. We went to Japan, we went to Korea, we went to Vietnam, and then you’re just plopped in that situation. And unless you’re in a very touristy place, There will be all the Vietnamese writing, all the Japanese writing, there’s no English to accompany it. It’s just, that’s it. And I think the very, only real places, this is how you know you’re going to get good food in Hong Kong.
If you’re at somewhere that doesn’t have English on the menu. That was always the trick, you need to find those local places, like the so cheap. If they normally specialize in one or two things and the food is just amazing and if we tried our best to integrate ourselves into that world, not judging anyone, but a lot of people would find the circle, let’s say, of British expats or American expats or French expats and live in a place that’s very similar to where a lot of them are, and they can surround themselves with home comforts.
There’s Marks and [00:32:00] Spencer’s across Hong Kong. So we could go to Marks and Spencer. It wasn’t even, we lived quite far away from the center, but there was still one. Fairly close to us. So if we ever wanted to get British food or whatever, we could quite easily just pop over to Mark’s and Spencer’s. Which, it was nice to have those home comforts, but we tried our best to step out into the unknown a little bit.
Um, but yeah, it was an amazing time, but it is very straightforward to settle if you are an English speaking person.
Nicholas Braman: Yeah, that’s a great point, and I think it’s important, it’s interesting. That definitely happens a lot. It happens the other way. Honestly, I think it’s maybe human nature, because it happens when people move to the U.
S. or the U. K. from other parts of the world as well. They stick around. There are culture people from the same culture or community or even just to be able to speak the same language together and what I’ve noticed recently, because now I’ve lived in Singapore for 10 years, Asia for a total of 15 years at a certain point, I think that was definitely a priority for me at the [00:33:00] beginning and over the years, I have lots of local friends from all different circles, ex colleagues, people from the gym, different activities and communities that I’ve Engagement over the years and now it’s, I’ve almost gotten to the other side where, especially having a young daughter, I want to make sure to be holding on to some of my own traditions, or if I was local, I would be missing out on.
And so it’s like coming through full circle to the other side. It’s really interesting.
Laurence Chinery: Like traditions is obviously one thing that’s, that is super important. But the other thing is the values that you’re raising your kids within. And I think I’d be amiss if I didn’t mention that within Hong Kong. I was a very fortunate person.
I’m a white British male. And that allowed me to get into certain positions that maybe other people wouldn’t be able to get into in Hong Kong is still legal to say to apply for this job. You have to fit this nationality criteria. That’s a perfectly legal thing to do on a job posting and being an English white [00:34:00] person, the written things like that and the unwritten things I was able to get into some of these situations.
Because of the privilege that i have so that played a big part and that’s something that exists at least for the time that i was there and then at the same time when you’re talking about values and the way that someone like hong kong is based on the foreign domestic helper market and how they. Treat them and how people are you know the difference in the price what’s what’s the what’s the bottom looking for the kind of financial disparity between the high and the low.
Things can be really cheap though. Because often people maybe aren’t being treated like the most fairly, not even just domestic helpers, but other people as well. So that did play a part into us wanting to move away as well, like in terms of the values that we’re teaching our kids. As a teacher, I would often see children not treating their helpers with a huge amount of respect or dignity.
And there’s one thing to say, I’m going to be the [00:35:00] person that’s different. I’m going to raise my family different. That’s one option that you can do, and that’s A good thing, or you can make that choice to leave, um, which is what we did. And I think that’s not, again, not to judge anyone that’s in that situation.
I just think for us at that time, it was a really important, we was just seeing these things that didn’t align with our values that led us to make that decision.
Nicholas Braman: That’s interesting. Funny note on your first point first, that’s actually how I met my wife. So I taught English in China. This was a long time ago, 2005 to 2007.
And as an Asian American, although I am a native speaker and grew up in the U. S., there is discrimination, or there was discrimination at that time. Obviously, the top preference was for white, Caucasian, native speaking English speakers. But then even, English is a second language, but Caucasian people would get preferenced to people of other colors from the U.
S., and I was looking for a job [00:36:00] during the summer when my full time job was on break, and it was going to be a sort of summer camp, and my wife at that time had, I think she just finished her master’s degree, or still in school for her master’s degree, and she was doing a side hustle to Recruit people because her English was good and I was rejected by her bosses because I was not Caucasian and I was like, Hey, this isn’t right.
Let’s have a chat. And we met over coffee at Starbucks in the middle of Shanghai and we ended up sitting there for four hours. Um, and then eventually dating and many years later getting married. So I thought, well, I’m glad,
Laurence Chinery: I’m glad the policy led to a happy ending then for you guys.
Nicholas Braman: Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Laurence Chinery: it really does highlight the fact that people aren’t being hired or chosen based on their expertise and their experience and their ability that might be factored into it, but that seems to be a secondary thing.
Um, especially with some of the people I work with, they just happen to have the right kind of skin and the right sounding voice. That didn’t necessarily mean that they were always the best [00:37:00] fit for the job within the local school setting. I’m talking about, not that I’m sure again. That’s a conversation for another another day, a bigger conversation.
I’m sure. Yeah.
Nicholas Braman: So then how long, since you guys said you’re, you’re youngest was six months when you guys moved to the Netherlands. So how, what you mentioned a little bit about, uh, maybe you weren’t comfortable with some of the societal or cultural things in Hong Kong. Um, what was the process of deciding to move away like and, and how long did that decision take?
Laurence Chinery: It didn’t take that long. I think it was just a case of I made that decision of we’re going and then we started looking at Europe. ’cause we knew we wanted to be somewhat closer to home so that we can get back to England. But we weren’t ready to move back to England yet. Maybe we’ll go back one day. I’m sure our family would love us to, but we’ve still got that, that desire to itch, that, that itch to scratch of we wanna see more places, we wanna experience more things.
So it started off as Europe, Europe was a narrowed down to, we just crossed [00:38:00] a few places off. I think my wife was just like, I don’t want to live in a big European country. So I was like, okay. So we just scratched off like France, Spain and Germany. And then we just looked at other places. We looked at schools and then the school here that my wife works at, she knew someone that worked there as well.
It’s very well renowned for its international curriculum in the secondary. Like it’s quite a well known school. She was telling like our friends, Oh, I’ve got a job at this school. And they’re like, Oh yeah, we know about that school. And she got the job and we made the decision to go and i think when you are in the teacher world your decision is decided for you your timeline is decided for you to say because most of the jobs they come up in october november december time for the following school year.
You might apply, then you might have your interview in January, you might go through some of the steps for the further interviews in February, and then you might sign your contract in March, and then the, and then you sign on and you make the move for the next school year, and I think, having been through that a couple [00:39:00] of times, we, it was very easy for us to make that decision to move to the Netherlands.
Nicholas Braman: Now that your oldest is going to be going to school in a couple years full time, now he’s already spending quite a bit of time in school, your youngest is A few years, a couple years old. Are you going to stay home or are you going to go back to work or what’s your plans? I think
Laurence Chinery: I don’t see myself doing the stay at home thing when they’re both at full time school.
I’ll definitely want to be doing something full time at that point. My youngest will turn two and a half in May of next year. Once he starts doing that, so having some mornings away at a preschool. I would like to try and start working out what I can do with that time, whether it be more podcast stuff, more starting a business, doing work with other people.
I’m not sure. There’s definitely something to a need to fill in terms of my time once he’s off doing something unsettled. I don’t see myself just [00:40:00] staying at home and keeping the house clean and tidy. That’s good for some people or, but I would like to try and invest into doing something. And then hopefully once he’s old enough, life might look a little bit different.
I’m not sure, maybe move somewhere else. Who knows? But I imagine there will be a time when I look back into teaching again, because it is just. A time that is really enjoyable and you get a lot out of being a teacher.
Nicholas Braman: Do you think the way you teach will have altered having been at home with your two boys for so long?
Laurence Chinery: That’s a really good question. Probably. I think I’m a little bit more patient now. I think I’ve had to, had to be. That’s not to say I’d lose my patience like as a teacher, but Yeah, I’m trying to think now. Yeah, I think so. I definitely, I used to, as I told you, I used to teach like younger kids, I would like to go back into teaching and I would like to go back into the older, still primary school, but like the older band of kids, like maybe if it’s five and six, [00:41:00] if that’s an opportunity that presents itself great, if not, so be it.
But, um, yeah, I think so much life happens and you just naturally you adjust and things change. So I would hope that I’m a little bit more patient, I hope.
Nicholas Braman: I think you must be because being at home with two kids all the time, you kind of have to have a lot of patience.
Laurence Chinery: Yeah.
Nicholas Braman: So usually I ask near the end of the podcast about what people would be satisfied with.
Or what they feel they would be success, uh, what would success look like five years down the road, but for you, I’d like to ask it a little bit differently when your youngest is off to to year one of school and you’re like, okay, my stay at home dad days are over. I’m going on to next venture, um, looking back as on these few years that you’ve had with your kids and moving to a new country, what will make you feel like this was the right decision to make?
And you’ve been [00:42:00] successful at it.
Laurence Chinery: I would just like to think that they are, I don’t know the right word to use it, I’d like to think that they will stick out a little bit, I would like to think that they will model to other kids within a school setting and within groups that they don’t have to, they don’t have to do maybe like what most kids would do, like my son, my oldest son, he’s very good at being polite and sharing and saying please and thank you, which isn’t super common, um, What are the settings that we go to and I’d like to think that by staying home with them and reinforcing this very frequently that their manners and the way that they approach life is adhering to our values and I think this is again not to judge people that put kids in daycare like sometimes the choice you have to make sometimes you just don’t want to stay home with the kids which is absolutely fine.
But [00:43:00] I do think that when your kids go off to daycare, however many days a week that it is, there is a time when you’re letting go of control of some of their formation in terms of their values and how they approach life. And that’s not to say that’s a bad thing, they might be able to be far more social, they might learn to deal with, they might learn to deal with conflict sooner than my kids do, because they may be around other kids more, and the parent to kid ratio is a little bit different.
But I just would really hope that my kids do keep that path of being Being respectful being truthful and like being loving to others around them and then another part that would be successful that point is. A little bit more time with my wife just a little bit more date times and we’ve also spoken about what life could look like if once the kids are both in full time school.
Is there a world where we can adjust our schedule so that we have a day off together like during the week while they’re at school just to go off and do things. That might not happen straight away when you start school, but it’s something that we would really like to achieve. She would like to. Balance her schedule [00:44:00] between teaching and other things like side hustling and other speaking engagements and stuff like that to allow us to get to that point.
So. That’s what I would say in terms of the kids is the, the values are there and we can invest a little bit more of our time to one another as opposed to teaching and kid looking after ing, if that’s a word.
Nicholas Braman: Parenting, parenting.
Laurence Chinery: Parenting, that’s the word, thank you.
Nicholas Braman: Those sound like fantastic goals.
Thanks for being with me here today, it was really great to talk to you. Where can people find you, where can people find your podcast?
Laurence Chinery: So Instagram is just at dad dialogue. There’s also dad dialogue.co uk where there’s a form you can sign up if you are a dad that wants to come on YouTube. I think it’s just at Dad dialogue.
Yeah, all the stuff is there. We’d love for people to check it out or even come on as a guest themselves.
Nicholas Braman: Awesome. Well, we’ll put the links in the show notes. Thanks again, lines. It was great talking to you.
Laurence Chinery: Appreciate it, Nicholas. Thank you so much for having me.